Conservative Iranian

Lecture Archive

The Importance of Nationalism and Patriotic Legends

اهمیت ملی‌گرایی و اسطوره‌های میهنی

SpeakerDarwin Sabouri @darwinsabouri
LanguageFarsi, translated to English
Full lectureWatch on YouTube
Excerpted here15 clips, 2,072 words

Darwin Sabouri opens on what he calls a stutter in Iranian history, the failure to reach a shared consensus about the past. He argues that a nation without memory has a confused and murky future, and that anti-historical intellectuals, measuring every era against a utopia, learn to catch the world perpetually in the act of falling short. Speaking as someone who describes himself as leaning left, he insists that no single individual changes the world, and that the figures history remembers as heroes are collective forces crystallized in one person. The real sociological question, in his account, is not why people divide but why they come together.

Much of the lecture sets right-wing and left-wing theory against each other over one question: whether human nature is fixed or variable. He presents the Marxist position on its own terms, that nature changes with the means of production, before objecting that a classless society would be a hell without even the ordered levels of Dante's Inferno.

The closing turn is toward Ferdowsi, whom Sabouri reads as a man who sensed a threat to language and answered it by renewing the national legends to bind a people into one whole. He contrasts nationhood, a canopy that holds many languages and peoples, with the fractures he attributes to Afghanistan and Syria, and calls for figures who grasp the dangers facing Iran and keep repeating the warning.

2:11

Tradition and Human Nature

Iran limps toward its future because it has never agreed about its past.

2:11 to 3:00 Watch in the full lecture

Iran limps toward the future, Darwin Sabouri argues, because it has never reached a shared consensus about its own past. Intellectuals who set a utopia against history end up judging both the present and the past against a world that never existed, demanding a story with no flaws in it.

Read the transcript

the thing that, the factor that causes, in my view, a stutter in Iranian history and makes us stumble toward the future, always limping along, I think it is the consensus that we have still failed to reach about the past. That is, when we look at history together, we still have not reached that consensus about how we should understand our own history.

And it usually takes this form: intellectuals who are against history, who are anti-historical, and they read history in a different way. They have placed a utopia of the world in front of themselves, and they evaluate the condition of human beings, of society, against that utopia. And they treat the past the same way.

Their intention is this: that throughout history there should have been no flaws whatsoever, and it should smell of paradise. Usually from history, or from the future, it should smell of paradise.

4:48

Spontaneous Order

Criticism practiced as a habit becomes a permanent posture toward the world.

4:48 to 5:44 Watch in the full lecture

Criticism can harden from a method into a permanent posture toward reality, always attacking, never accepting. Darwin Sabouri describes how it trains a person to catch the world perpetually in the act, standing over every phenomenon and challenging it.

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This skill might be the skill of rhetoric, or it might be in the area of epistemology. How, through the skill of rhetoric, through epistemological skills, can you consistently catch the world in the act, catch phenomena in the act, catch opinions in the act, catch people in the act. So the basic premise for entering the world is not: "I don't like this world, that deep world is what I really want, this one doesn't work." This world is built on deception, this world is built on injustice, in this world there is no justice, in this world there is no fairness, in this world there is no awareness, and whatever it is that I am looking for, that thing we need to inject into society.

Meaning we must constantly, through this critical thinking, as a method and as a habit that we have, keep going and standing over phenomena and catching them in the act, and you become a person who constantly stands over the world and is challenging the world.

6:41

Spontaneous Order

Accepting the world as it is comes before any attempt to improve it.

6:41 to 7:05 Watch in the full lecture

No single person has the power to change the world, Darwin Sabouri argues, and the work worth doing starts the other way around, by first accepting the world and human beings as they actually are. Only then, in his account, does trying to improve them make sense.

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First, you accept the totality of the world. You accept it as it is. The totality of this human being, as a creature that is human, with all the conditions that govern a human being. You understand this. And then you try to improve it. I promise you, no one can change the world. No human being has the power to be able to change the world.

7:05

Authority and the State

Heroes, in this account, are collective forces crystallized in one person.

7:05 to 7:51 Watch in the full lecture

The figures history calls heroes are mostly the embodiment of forces already in motion. Darwin Sabouri, who says he leans left, offers Marx as his own example: a collective will finds a vessel, and would have found another if that person had never lived.

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And the people who you encounter throughout history appearing as heroes, showing up as heroes, appearing as champions, as champions. They are nothing other than those same collective and historical forces that then crystallize in one individual, and a simple-minded person might feel that this change in the world that took place was because of a certain person.

Meaning they feel that if Marx had not existed, probably this horror of communism would not have taken over the world, and then tens of millions of people would not have perished. But I, as someone who leans left, tell you that Marx was only one part of this event. It is a collective will that takes shape before Marx, in the history before Marx, and all the events that took place, for example, in European history.

11:55

Spontaneous Order

The sociological question is why people marry, not why they divorce.

11:55 to 12:21 Watch in the full lecture

Ask why marriages break and you are studying the exception. Darwin Sabouri flips it: the real sociological puzzle is why human beings join together at all rather than scatter, because order, not disorder, is the thing that needs explaining.

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That is not the question. The question is not why people separate from each other. The question is why human beings come together. This is a sociological question. It is a sociological question. Not why divorce happens. That comes second. The sociological question is why marriage exists. What is marriage? How does it work? Why do human beings, even as children, get married with each other? Think about that first.

19:16

Tradition and Human Nature

Even Dante's hell is arranged in levels, and a classless world would be worse.

19:16 to 20:18 Watch in the full lecture

Even Dante's hell has an order and a hierarchy to it, Darwin Sabouri notes, while a world flattened into perfect sameness is more nightmarish still. A truly classless world, in his reading, would not be paradise but hell.

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a classless paradise, that's what you want, and throughout history you have called for it, "we want a classless society, we want a classless society, a classless, unified society." Let me tell you something you should know: a classless society is hell. For example, if someone wanted to describe hell, they would have to describe it as classless, just as Dante even classifies hell into levels.

Putting everyone, everyone together in one place, meaning when you think in terms of human ideals, even in punishment justice should still govern you. When in the thinking of someone like Dante, even sin itself has a classification, then after life, in the world of death, in the world of the dead, that same classification exists.

Those who want a classless world for the living, it is clear that the hell they build is even worse than Dante's hell, with all its levels.

22:17

Tradition and Human Nature

Left and right divide over whether human nature is fixed or variable.

22:17 to 23:33 Watch in the full lecture

One disagreement sits underneath the politics: is human nature fixed or endlessly changeable? Darwin Sabouri names this as one of the deepest splits between right and left, speaking in general terms since each side has many branches. The right holds it largely constant, the left from Marx onward that it can be remade by changing the conditions around it.

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from a Freudian view of the world to a Darwinian view of the world, which understands it understands that by Darwinian nature humans must be respected and maybe it is not without reason that one of the most important differences between left and right theory in general terms, I say in general because again each of these has many branches, but generally speaking, in general terms, is over the nature of humanity.

One of the greatest disagreements between them is over the definition of human nature. Is human nature fixed or variable? This is where they fundamentally, completely diverge. That is, right-wing theory says human nature is fixed. Left-wing theory, Marx himself and the Marxists who came after him, say no, human nature is variable. It varies with the means of production.

It is historically variable, and this nature can change. All you need is to build a world where the means of production are in the hands of the workers, in the hands of the people. And then at that point it all ends. Everyone stops competing, stops fighting. But the other side says no, I know that human nature is fixed. And what is that nature? A creature that seeks conflict.

23:33

Individual Rights

Right-wing design takes a competitive nature as given and builds around it.

23:33 to 24:22 Watch in the full lecture

Human beings are competitive, always striving to outdo one another. Darwin Sabouri describes how right-wing thought takes that as given and designs the economy around it, opening arenas to compete in trade, technology, fashion and sport, and notes that the ethics such a design produces are not grounded in ethics at all.

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It has a combative nature, it always wants to rise above others, it loves competition. So now that humans have been defined this way, the right wing says: so I will design society in a way, I will design the economy in a way, I will design the economy in a way, I will view the human being in a way that all the conditions for this cunning nature are in its hands.

You are competitive, great, go compete in the economy, go compete in trade, compete, go compete in technology, go in fashion, go in sports, wherever you want, compete, and none of these things have a moral foundation for him. So the state he forms, the ethics he forms, will ultimately not be an ethics grounded in ethics, meaning it has nothing to do with ethics at all. Competition

27:50

Authority and the State

Taking the state's subsidy gives it grounds to reach into your private life.

27:50 to 28:27 Watch in the full lecture

A subsidy on bread, fuel, and medicine comes with a claim attached, and taking it costs you the standing to tell the state to stay out of your private life. Darwin Sabouri lays out the trade: dependence invites control, and the only way to keep the state out of your home is to stop inviting it in.

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You cannot expect the government to support you and then say, "Don't interfere with my hijab." It will say, "No, I am subsidizing you. I am subsidizing your bread, your gasoline, your medicine. So how can I not subsidize your clothing?" And it is right. It is right. If you want the government to stay out, if you want the government's hand out of all your private domains, then stay away from the government. Do not receive any support in the form of subsidies from the government, and do not demand it from future governments.

36:38

The Iranian Condition

Going back to a familiar past is easier than building a future no one has seen.

36:38 to 37:34 Watch in the full lecture

Going backward is always easier than going forward, because the past hands you a picture to copy. Darwin Sabouri argues 1979 succeeded because it was a return, and that the revolution Iran needs now is harder, because it must face a future no one has seen yet.

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Now, why is revolution hard in Iran today and in 1979 it was easy? Because going back to the past is always much easier than moving forward into the future. Because you had a model, an image. The revolutionary person, the revolutionary mindset of 1979, wanted to go back to the past. That is very easy, like when you have gone somewhere and you want to go back, you turn around and return, you know the road you came from.

The person of 1979 wanted to go back to their past history, to return to the same things they had before, to return to a religion that they had idealized, to return to their village life. Constantly the village is being called out, you can see from the 1940s onward that the village keeps being invoked. When I

45:59

National Identity

Ferdowsi answered a threat to the language, and Iran needs figures like him now.

45:59 to 47:08 Watch in the full lecture

Ferdowsi carried the importance of national identity through his work without treating it as a personal project, because he felt a danger to the language in his own time. Darwin Sabouri argues Iran is in another such moment, and needs modern Ferdowsis who can see the dangers facing the country today.

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Iran, which for thousands of years has essentially been shaped by this kind of thinking, meaning even Ferdowsi highlights the importance of national identity in his work, he carries it forward, and it never even occurs to him that this is his personal project. He does not think of it as "this is my project." That is simply the nature of Ferdowsi's speech.

Why does he feel that it matters? Because he feels that there is a danger, meaning when a threat from outside is threatening the language, he says: I feel we are in a period that could be our great historical crisis, and through the power of language I can once again show the importance of our national mythology so that once again I can bring this nation together as one unified whole and make it understood.

We need Ferdowsis in our own time, people who have truly grasped the dangers facing Iran today and the dangers facing Iran's future, and who keep repeating it, keep reinforcing it, and keep building on it so you never forget.

47:36

National Identity

Shared national identity is what gives a soldier a reason to defend his country.

47:36 to 48:19 Watch in the full lecture

What makes a soldier willing to defend his country under threat is a shared national identity, Darwin Sabouri argues. He points to Afghanistan, where in his account Pashtun, Tajik, and Hazara loyalties never resolved into a shared sense of being Afghan, leaving no one with a reason to fight when the whole country was threatened.

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Why does Afghanistan fail? Why does Syria fail today? What could have motivated an Afghan soldier to fight for his country? What about his sense of nationalism? What never allowed Afghanistan to become Afghanistan? The fact that I am Pashtun, you are Tajik, there are Hazaras. These very divisions meant they never said "we are Afghans." That is why when their entire country was under threat, they had no motivation to fight.

One would say I will defend the Hazaras, another would say no, these people are my cousins, I will defend Badakhshan. My cousins are there, I will defend Badakhshan. When they came for the Hazaras,

49:08

National Identity

Nationhood is a canopy that holds many languages and dialects at once.

49:08 to 50:02 Watch in the full lecture

A nation is full of differences: languages, dialects, faiths, regions. Darwin Sabouri describes national identity as the umbrella that rises above all of them, not erasing the differences but sheltering them under a shared history so a diverse people can still greet one another as one.

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The concept of nationalism is a concept that does not carry those conflicts within itself. You cannot show me that nationalism among Shirazi Shias might be different from nationalism among Sunni Baluch people. This idea works so well that it can ultimately shape your agenda and save it. And nationhood is a concept that operates on a broad scale, meaning all those many languages and dialects and subcultures, all of these things are held within it, and it actually acknowledges these distinctions, and then somehow rises above all of these distinctions that a number of people have as they live together in a society, and ultimately it is in relation to that canopy that they greet one another, have relationships, have bonds, because they share a common history. But the fact that

1:00:30

Authority and the State

Free state healthcare can enlarge the state and multiply illness itself.

1:00:30 to 1:01:31 Watch in the full lecture

Taxes collected for free healthcare can end up multiplying illness itself, Darwin Sabouri argues, since a citizen assured of free treatment has less reason to think about staying well. He points at Iran's state hospitals as the case in point, where a nominal fee makes a four in the morning visit for a mild headache rational.

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we should have. But when you look at it from a long-term perspective, you realize that you are making this government bigger and bigger. Meaning, you are now saying let's collect taxes for healthcare, and then provide free healthcare. And then you realize that free healthcare might actually cause illnesses to multiply. Meaning, you end up producing more sick people.

If you are certain that your treatment is free, a citizen might not even think about their own health anymore. Because they have a sense of assurance that there is a place where I can go, I can go there and get treated. Or look at these state hospitals in Iran. In practice, it is like a blank check that you hold in your hand and you go and do whatever you want at the state hospital.

At four in the morning you have a slight headache, well, let me go to the state hospital. It is a state hospital after all. The doctor's fee is, say, 15,000 tomans for a visit. And just a few years ago, a visit at state hospitals was five thousand tomans. Well, five thousand tomans,

1:22:11

National Identity

A people that loses its memory has a confused and murky future.

1:22:11 to 1:23:00 Watch in the full lecture

A people that loses its memory loses its way, and its future goes vague and confused. Darwin Sabouri turns the charge around, asking anyone who says part of your history is invented which part of human history is not, and noting that even our personal memories are woven through with story.

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A nation without memory, a nation without memory, I say, can it have a future? Its future is confused and murky. A nation without history. Anyone who fights against history and wants to convince you that part of your history is made of ammunition, a very serious question must be asked of them. And philosophically, which part of human history, even at the individual level, is not mixed with ammunition?

We have so many personal memories of our own that are mixed with ammunition. Memories we tell about a place we went, a gathering we attended, a place we were invited to, a memorable night, our military service, a memorable night, our wedding night, the night my child was born, the day I fell in love. Are all of these not real? These are stories, meaning they are woven together through

Books and Thinkers Referenced

Darwin Sabouri draws on the following thinkers across this lecture. No work is named aloud in the excerpted passages, so this is a list of figures rather than titles. Descriptions are ours, offered as a starting point for readers new to them. These rest on settled general knowledge, with Ferdowsi's dates confirmed in earlier work on this archive.

Karl Marx: German philosopher and economist, 1818 to 1883, whose account of history and class the lecture treats as the foundation of left-wing thought. He is cited for the claim that human nature is not fixed but varies with the means of production. Sabouri, who says he leans left, argues that Marx was one part of a collective will already in motion rather than the sole author of what followed.

Charles Darwin: English naturalist, 1809 to 1882. The lecture invokes what it calls a Darwinian view of the world, one in which human beings must be respected as nature made them, and ties it to the right's premise that human nature is fixed.

Sigmund Freud: Austrian founder of psychoanalysis, 1856 to 1939. He appears once, as the pole the lecture moves away from in shifting from a Freudian to a Darwinian view of human nature, and no particular idea of his is discussed.

Dante Alighieri: Italian poet, about 1265 to 1321, whose vision of hell is arranged in ordered descending circles. Sabouri uses that ordering to argue that even hell is governed by hierarchy, and that a world flattened into perfect sameness would be worse.

Ferdowsi: Iranian poet, about 940 to 1020, held up here as someone who reinforced national identity at a moment when the language itself was under threat, and who never treated the work as a personal project. Sabouri argues Iran needs figures like him today who grasp the dangers facing the country and keep saying so.

About this page

These clips are excerpted from a longer lecture in Farsi by Darwin Sabouri and translated into English by The Conservative Iranian. The transcripts on this page are our translation and not the speaker's own words in English, and any error in them is ours. Which passages became clips is an editorial decision of ours, not the shape of the lecture itself. Where two clips overlap, each one is published in full, so a sentence you meet twice is intentional and every argument stands on its own.

Watch the complete lecture on Darwin Sabouri's channel, @darwinsabouri. If you found this useful, the best thing you can do is subscribe to him there.

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